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A few notes on Tanking multiple mobs...
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Nibaw
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We used to use line-of-sight to pull the caster mobs, but everyone tries to crowd the front these days.
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Toxyn
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nibaw wrote:
We used to use line-of-sight to pull the caster mobs, but everyone tries to crowd the front these days.


This is funny coincidence. Friday, I had to explain to a group of full blown 70s in mostly purple gear what "LOS" meant. When I questioned how come they didn't know it, I found that they hadn't been original WoW players and just joined since BC. It was a hysterical situation for me.
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Redwater
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*blinks* I still use LOS to pull all the time. I guess its just something I expect people to know about, and expect to use. Those nasty caster mobs don't stand far away if you do it...

9/10 times if it has a mana bar, I head for a corner...
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Vutak
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nibaw, Raji and I were yakkin' it up on Vent about this recently. I'm not sure we came to any hard and fast conclusions, but here are some of the ideas that I tabled (from a mostly-healer's point of view, with a smattering of tanking experience), as well as some extra thoughts.

The pull is rather sensitive moment, where it's rather important to know the difference between the various tanks.

- Warriors will frequently pull with a ranged attack and pop Bloodrage either immediately before or during the pull. Bloodrage will generate a slight amount of threat to all the targets, but probably (though I'm not sure...) not even enough to cover the threat generated if one were to heal them back up to full. If they're concentrating on their primary target, as is appropriate for light damage pulls, they'll often open with Shield Slam or Devastate... If damage is an issue (as is often the case in heroics), opening with Thunderclap (for threat) or Demoralizing Shout (for mitigation) may be more appropriate. For heavy damage pulls (say, 3 elites in a heroic), it's important for all parties involved to know that the first big heal may need to come quickly. Lots of pull-wide threat is criticial to establish ASAP... healers may have to stay their usual instincts and wait a moment before dropping their big heal, and DPSers should probably go easy, as the tank may not be building threat on the primary target as quickly as usual.

- Druids (bears) will often pull with Faerie Fire, but more experienced druids may opt for some pre-bear sneakiness, by casting Starfire/Wrath, then Moonfire, before switching to bear form. The result, especially if they opt for different targets for each, is that they may be able to start with a threat lead. In fact, for particularly healing aggro-sensitive pulls, the tank may opt to Starfire on their second target and Moonfire their third, with the intention of Mangling/Lacerating on their primary target immediately and creating a nice threat padding for that first big heal. DPSers should again be careful to open up at a rate that takes these ideas into account.

- Paladins will almost always open with Avenger's Shield, which gives them a very solid lead in threat right off the pull. Because it's not always clear which targets will be hit by A.S. after the first, Tankadins will need to pay attention and focus on whichever targets were not hit, especially if they are not going to be CCed. Consecrating should take a few things into account: A quick consecrate will mean the first big heal will be able to come sooner, which is often really important since tankadins lack the huge health pool of other tanks... A late consecrate allows the CCers a little extra time to pick up their targets - As a hunter, I was rarely able to pull off my trap if I started firing after the Consecrate was already down, if they were hit by Avenger's Shield Worth mentioning here is if mages will be using the trick we discussed earlier (Ice Lance to pull the target away before sheeping), they will frequently need several Lances to pull off the target if they were hit by Avenger's Shield. All this to say that, should you have the choice, A.S. should probably not hit CC targets. A final note: Seals generate a very slight amount of threat to all targets - worth noting especially if you are not the MT.


Once combat is in full swing, tanks will have to generate enough threat on the primary target to stay ahead of DPSers, but note that their speed is entirely within their control. I would argue that the tank's first priority, though, is generating enough threat on all the targets to stay ahead of the threat generated by healing. Paladins will stay far ahead of this curve simply by spamming Consecrate, and the real test will be whether the healer can keep up with the damage they are taking. Bears will usually Swipe, hitting three targets at once... if they have a 4th target to keep, though, this may become much (much, much, much) more complicated; Can anybody attest to how well just Swipe will do against healing threat? Warriors, again, get the short end of the stick on this one, having only Thunderclap to generate any significant amount of threat to 4 targets; TC will generally be enough threat to keep ahead of healing in non-heroics, but in heroics, swapping targets and Devastating/SSlamming may be necessary.


One final note: Mitigation is incredibly helpful to stay ahead of healing threat. Since only effective healing generates threat, the less damage the tank takes, the less threat the healer will generate. If you find that you just can't generate enough threat to keep ahead of the healing, perhaps it's best to go the other way, and try to help reduce the damage you're taking. While healers have some control over the timing of their heals, they've still got a very real deadline to keep... or else the tank dies. (ha, dead... I made a funny)


Still to come: Dirty tricks with Misdirection. Oh, and some stuff on LoS pulls.
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Redwater
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On thing to note from my experience about paladins pulling along with a mage sheeping. If the lie of the pull is such that the mage can sheep the target relatively close to where they're standing, hitting that target with avenger shield is actually a very good idea (provided the mage also keeps it sheeped til wanted). This will keep the target focused on the paladin even through (most) heal aggro, and there's little to no work needed to pull it off the mage. That is case specific with the positioning though of course.
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Etowah
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've started mageying some in Outlands instances on well, my mage. One thing I've found works well is to stand by the tank and try to time the sheep to land literally just after the tank pulls. Mob is already mad at the tank for hitting the group so its not hard for the tank to pick it up later when its time to break the sheep.

Hardest part is to get used to the tank's pulling style to time it just right and thats not really all that hard cause most tanks will pull relatively the same way each time.

Being a fire mage, I really want the tank to have all the aggro so I can pyro to my hearts content. Very Happy
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Merell
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used moonfire and wraith(sp?) to generate insta threat when tanking and holding together a mob. Though truthfully tab swipe seems to do just fine if DPS gives me a little time to build agro.

I'll have to try that multi spellcasting targetting to try for multipuls.

::bounds off::
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