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Random thought about the tank population...

 
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Vutak
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Random thought about the tank population... Reply with quote

So I was reading a quote from a blue post (on mmo-champion.com) and read:
Quote:
[...] there is a math problem because a 5-player run needs 1 tank but a 25-player run doesn't need 5 tanks.

Isn't it funny that this has always been the case?... I wonder if that was intentional.
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Rajindo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read a request in the beta forums for consistency in tanking requirements. That since Five mans take 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps a 10 man should take 2 tanks 2 healers, 6 dps and thereby 25 person raids should need 5 tanks, 5 healers, 15 dps.

The most compelling argument against this, I felt, was that it limited the devs in the way of encounter design. Also my own opinion is that it's much harder to find tanks and healers so upping their requirements may not be productive.
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Leuchtende
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, i never really quite understood it... i think it also explains some of the "tank shortage" really... especially since most raid content generally only requires 3 tanks, why roll a prot-tank when most (raiding) guilds already have their token amount?
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Saphiel
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've actually found 4 to be the magic number for tanks. I like at least 1 to be a Prot Paladin and at 1 to be a capable of DPS if they're not needed for tanking.

I think Blizzard's solution in WotLK is the best choice - they're making tanking warriors and paladins more capable of DPSing when they're not tanking, and Death Knights have this functionality built in.
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Brecken
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I think back to 40 man raiding, I recall there being one MT and about 4 0r 5 OTs. And by this the MT was protection (or feral) and all the others were DPS warriors who could tank a trash mob. I think the formula might have been intended to stay the same but so many raid mobs are now CCable in so many fashions. This combined with raid timers makes me believe that Blizz truly intended for less tanks and healers and more DPS to attend raids.

But since you can't predict everything in design, players found numbers that worked for them so that the maximum number of players could complete the content. I do believe that 10 mans (Kara specifically) was intended as a MT/OT 2 healer 6 DPS breakdown. Perhaps some of that design got lost when trying to create new and interesting encounters in the 25 man world.
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Redwater
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
tanking ... paladins more capable of DPSing


*shivers in delight*

It kind of makes sense that it doesn't exactly scale up fully. Its rare (in our guild) to get 5 5-man instances going at once, but 25 for a raid doesn't seem impossible anymore. Tanks and healers aren't always as much fun as the DPS classes, so they will always be rarer I think.

There are signs of more tanks though. Look at Mags. You have to have 1 tankish person for every one of the casters. Wink
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Rajindo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's so unusual for blizz to talk about their design choices I decided to paste Ghostcrawler's entire post (that Vu put a snip of ). I think it's interesting.

----------------------------------------------------



"It's definitely a different approach than we've tried before.

But here's the problem with those existing tanking trees: not many warriors or paladins want to go into those protection trees, so there are a lot of 4-player groups out there wishing they could run an instance but unable to find a tank. And even if there were a lot of prot warriors and paladins, there is a math problem because a 5-player run needs 1 tank but a 25-player run doesn't need 5 tanks. A potential prot warrior might not see the point of taking up the shield knowing that some percentage of prot tanks will have to give up that role in order to get into the raid.

We chose the death knight as the new class partially to address that tanking shortage. We feared that having Frost be a traditional protection tree might flood the realms with even more dps specs looking for groups.

So we thought maybe it's time to try a different approach: Let a tank choose what kind of abilities they want access to, while still giving them access to enough tanking talents to do their job. While every tanking warrior worth her salt has Shield Slam, Imp Shield Block and Last Stand, none of them has Mortal Strike (at least not since MC and BWL), or Imp Execute or Flurry. A death knight can be a tank, yet some death knight tanks will have Howling Blast and some will have Heart Strike. A death knight tank that gets a little bored with his spec can try a completely different one and still tank. A warrior tank trying a different spec gets very limited options, like whether he wants Improved Revenge or how many points to put into Imp Defensive Stance.

The point isn't that ALL death knights will be amazing and effortless tanks regardless of talents, but that there will have some variety in what talents the tanks do pick up. All Frost tanks will get Unbreakable Armor for the armor and parry, but maybe some will take Deathchill and some will take Killing Machine. Maybe that will convince them to tank a little longer. If not, maybe the possibility of spec'ing into Unholy and having to change up their play style will keeping them interested.

Bottom line: maybe the DK style of tanking trees will be more fun and encourage more players to try tanking out.

(I'm excluding druids because they actually do pretty well swapping from tanking to dps with one spec, but then again it is still pretty much one spec.)

Side note: clearly there are some things we can do to make tanking more fun for all classes, and those are discussions we are taking very seriously.

I hope this does not come off as dismissive or defensive. It's a totally valid question you're asking, so I wanted to try to give you a glimpse of our logic here."
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