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Blood Princes raid positioning

 
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Rajindo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject: Blood Princes raid positioning Reply with quote

So our most common cause of death during the BP fight seems to be people getting knocked all around by the shock vortex and if not outright killed then out of range for the healers.

I tried out something a bit different in our 10 this Thursday, maybe it'll work for the 25.



(yes my photoshop skills are sadly eroded :p)

The red outline is the wall of the room. The light blue line is the stairs. The green brackets are the healers positions and the blue ovals are the dps. The melee will be on whichever boss is active of course. The tanks are shown at their respective positions (t1,t2,t3)

My thinking was along these lines. I need to run back and forth across the room to get the blue orbs. At the moment I have to go around the other tanks and hope I'm not standing in the middle of a bunch of people when a shock vortex happens. I can cut out this particular variable by having the stairs (mostly) to myself.

Next the ranged have to move around a bit every shock and I thought by centering two of the main dps targets we could cut down on that. The melee also have more room to run out during the vortex since the stairs are pretty much clear now.

Thoughts?
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Nguni
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how closely we followed it tonight (too focused on health bars), but it felt like I had too move a lot less and got tossed around/had melee running through me a lot less. And after a few trial attempts, we did get them down, so something worked Smile
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Lesmiserable
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like you're not taking anything else into account. What about the fire orbs? The shadowy orbs don't just appear by the stairs, and one of the issues our 10 man group had was that other people were pulling the orbs before the person got there (with me specifically it was healing aggro, I guess). I understand it helps as far as shock vortex, but I think it requires too much effort for people when they have to run back from one of the 30 things that makes them move out of place.

With that said, our group didn't have much trouble with the blood princes. I'm not entirely sure why a new strategy is in order? Your group got unfortunately mostly ranged, our group had mostly melee. That's not a common occurrence, especially in 25 man.
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Kun
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if "fire orbs" Lesmis is referencing refers to the kinetic bombs or the ball of flame, but if the former that just means three DPS aren't bound to the above, and they should be able to get to them a bit easier with fewer people spread between them and the orbs. I think this will help with healing, particularly with melee inadvertently knocking healers out of range of tanks during an empowered shock vortex.

However, my main concern with the above is the unempowered shock vortexes. The unempowered shock vortexes could cause people to need to abandon their assigned region, though I'm sure people are smart enough to move and then move back after it's gone. It will be painful if it's put on the two tanks, though.

As for the empowered ball of flame, there will only be half as many people to soak it since the other half are on the wrong side of the tank to intervene. It might be worth it to move T1 (or T2, whoever tanks Taldaram) to one side or the other so that the ball of flame are guaranteed to move in one direction, making it easier to soak some of the damage.

Overall, I think this idea will make it a lot easier to keep people up and will be a big boon until the 10% buff comes out when we're down to five healers. There are a few tweaks that will improve it, but then I'm guessing that's why it's posted on the forums. ^_^
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Tortolia
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It worked well yesterday. We won with only two healers and got the Orb Whisperer achievement, so obviously it is workable for 10 man.

Kinetic orbs were easily handled by the three raid pets so myself and the hunters could just DPS. There are fewer people on each side this way but my experience is that half the empowered fireballs take out someone on Teldaram's side of the room anyway - not much time to soak it up.

Blood Princes is a fight we seem to either take (nearly) to the end or wipe fast. Perhaps better positioning will alleviate the RNG factor - it worked for Deathwhisper.
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Lesmiserable
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Tortolia- I'm not saying that it's not workable. I'm just saying I don't think it's more helpful than how we already do it. I wasn't aware we were even having issues with the Blood Princes on a regular basis.

Also, I just don't see this strategy as working for all group make-ups. I think when there's an even number of ranged and melee, or even just a lot of melee, this strategy wouldn't be helpful. However, it does seem to space things out well for a mostly ranged DPS group, and that has happened to us on a few occasions.

@Kun- ALL FLAMING BALLS! Except the bouncy ones.
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Saphiel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, I have mixed feelings. I'm speaking just to 25 here:

As Lesmis pointed out, I'm not sure how much keeping the stairs open is really going to help the Keleseth tank in 25. Do the Nucleii only spawn on the stairs? I was under the impression they could spawn anywhere, so there's still significant risk of the Kel tank running through ranged and healers during Empowered Shock Vortex.

Depending on the specific number of melee, I could see this plan actually making it harder for them to spread out for the vortex. There's kind of a bottleneck between the two ranged groups that prevents the melee from spreading out until they're up on the stairs or whatever, then they might not have time to actually spread out before the Vortex goes off.

For ranged-heavy groups it does seem beneficial; problem there being that ranged heavy groups tend to handle Empowered Shock a little easier anyway since they can spread out as soon as the fight starts.
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Rajindo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The blood princes is certainly not a guaranteed one shot in 25 and every wipe takes energy away from us while we try to push forward. I understand this doesn't keep people from moving. I'm sorry but I can't think of a method that would stop all movement and make everything work smooth and easy. However, it does reduce movement for the ranged, give more room to the melee group, and hopefully make it easier for healers to cover all the raid.

The fire orbs never hit all the raid anyway. If they hit half of it consistently it'll be an improvement.

As to the shadow orbs I found I didn't even have to leave the stairs. All the ones above and to the sides were easily within reach and the few in the far back by the door went to the healers whom I then took them from.

The people handling the kinetic orbs may have to move a bit if we need more than their pets but I can't see that making things any worse.

This is just a suggestion anyway. It's up to saph if he wants to try it or not.
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Nguni
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We ran with just two healers (didn't really have a DPS that could switch, so we just had to make do), and keeping everyone in range was something we struggled with on the first few attempts. On one of our earlier attempts, we were doing well until we lost Zand going out of range, and even a pretty quick battle rez didn't allow us to recover.

On our final try, we lost no one, got the Orb Whisperer and downed the bosses. I wasn't moving as much to keep people in range. I wasn't getting flung away by melee running through me to clear a shock vortex, and Zand was pretty on the ball for getting stuff off of me, at least, and I know I had a few of the shadowy ones come after me. So, at least from my healer-tunner-vision PoV, the strategy seemed to work.
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Saphiel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me preface this by saying again that I think this strategy is good for 2-healer 10. Thrayin and I ran into the same problems when we were trying to 2-heal it. I just don't think we'd see the same results on 25, which is where my concerns come from.

Rajindo wrote:
...give more room to the melee group...


It's on this point that I'm not convinced. Well actually I'm also a bit concerned about the spacing. Let me elaborate:

So you'll have Tal and Val tanked about 12 yards apart, then you have the healers about 12 yards from there. That leaves the closest ranged group starting 24 yards away and the further one at 36 yards, which is already beyond max range for some people. That means the further ranged group is going to have to collapse in further and move around anyway. To be fair you could collapse the two when Tal is empowered but my point is that I don't feel that it significantly reduces movement.

I feel like this format will create ranged lines instead of ranged clusters. This then creates a limited corridor for the melee to move during Vortex. Since the healers are going to be 12 yards on either side of them, they have to run straight north or south for a fair bit before they can actually start spreading out. The risk there is that they won't have enough time to clear the healer corridor and spread out, and thus will blow each other up.

For the record, it's not that I don't think we couldn't do it better, but given the chaos of the fight on 25-man I'm not convinced that this particular method would significantly reduce our problems.

EDIT: Anyway, I hate being that guy who offers problems but not solutions. If people are pining for some more structure on the fight, I have a few ideas I'll put into play.
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Nguni
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the biggest problems for me, as a healer, on 25 man, is thinking I have a clear spot when shock vortex is called only to get flung out of range by the melee who are suddenly running through my formerly clear spot to get away.

If there's a way to position melee (or healers) or otherise give them a clear path for vortex, that might clear up a bunch of the confusion. I'm not sure if that was Zand's intention with the strategy.
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Saphiel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think on one of our recent 25s, I was encouraging the ranged and healers to stay well clear of the stairs and dais area, and the melee to stick to running back toward the back wall or laterally to either side (while staying on the dais) so that both groups had maximum room to move.

It can make the ranged setup a little tight, but if people stack up in aconcentric half-circle so that one person is at 15-20 yards from the boss and the other is at 30-40 yards, they don't have to move at all.
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Nguni
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It never seems to matter where I stand. Every day is Earth Day on Blood Prince Council.
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