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Kun
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One concern I have regarding the round robin is that, for those interested in Shadowmourne, they're going to be splitting the saronite between them, so we could wind up with five interested people with five saronite each instead of one with twenty-five.

An alternative would be for those interested in Shadowmourne to state they want the saronite specifically for that item, do the round robin like before, and rather than hand the Shadowmourne saronite out to the players, stockpile it for when the weapon is actually available (e.g. if five people want the legendary, then every round of saronite, five pieces go into the bank toward the first drop of the weapon). Once the first person is done with their saronite, we'd still keep the placeholder there since the other individuals interested in Shadowmourne "donated" their rounds of saronite toward his or her weapon. This way, we still divvy up the saronite based on raid interest, but we don't spread the Shadowmourne saronite thin.
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Tripe
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kun wrote:
One concern I have regarding the round robin is that, for those interested in Shadowmourne, they're going to be splitting the saronite between them, so we could wind up with five interested people with five saronite each instead of one with twenty-five.

An alternative would be for those interested in Shadowmourne to state they want the saronite specifically for that item, do the round robin like before, and rather than hand the Shadowmourne saronite out to the players, stockpile it for when the weapon is actually available (e.g. if five people want the legendary, then every round of saronite, five pieces go into the bank toward the first drop of the weapon). Once the first person is done with their saronite, we'd still keep the placeholder there since the other individuals interested in Shadowmourne "donated" their rounds of saronite toward his or her weapon. This way, we still divvy up the saronite based on raid interest, but we don't spread the Shadowmourne saronite thin.


I think you missed that the saronite can be used for Shadowmourn OR for certain recipies from Icecrown. As the saronite can be purchased, the idea was to round robin to all who need it. Out of that pool, we'd have X people wanting crafted items plus 1 Shadowmourn person (If my understanding of the most recent posts are correct).

- Tripe
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Kun
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tripe wrote:
I think you missed that the saronite can be used for Shadowmourn OR for certain recipies from Icecrown. As the saronite can be purchased, the idea was to round robin to all who need it. Out of that pool, we'd have X people wanting crafted items plus 1 Shadowmourn person (If my understanding of the most recent posts are correct).

- Tripe


Thanks, Tripe, though I do understand the Saronite has multiple uses. My idea would only be for a situation where more than one person wants Shadowmourne (if there's not more than one who wants it, or if we're only letting one orb be set aside per round, then it's a moot point). Using names from this thread to help illustrate, we could have a list like the below:

Saphiel: Crafting
Keryn: Crafting
Rajindo: Shadowmourne
Kun: Crafting
Jutaka: Shadowmourne

If we did this strictly round robin, then Rajindo and Jutaka would be splitting the saronite for Shadowmourne. My idea would be for, every round, Saphiel, Keryn, and Kun to get one saronite each and then two would go into a Shadowmourne stockpile. As soon as either Rajindo or Jutaka gets the weapon to start the quest chain, they'd get the entire stockpile so as not to split the Saronite between them and have it take longer to get the legendary in the raid. Like I said before, it's just one thought I had to help prevent splitting resources for the blade while remaining fair to people wanting crafted stuff. If people aren't concerned about it, though, then I agree that it's best not to complicate the system.
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Jutaka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since we should be taking down Festerface and Rotgut any day now and the other wings are all opening up, I wanted to come back to this again. I feel it's probably close to time to decide what's to be done regarding this questline, Primordial Saronite, etc.

My own personal opinion, and one that I have meditated on since we first found out about Shadowmourne and have concluded would be the same whether I could use it or not, would be that as this is intended to be a Legendary DPS weapon, any raid/guild efforts to gaining one should go towards a dedicated main spec raid DPSer as that would most benefit the raid as a whole.

The actual questline is a little different from what was originally listed in this thread, so I put together an ouline of the entire questline so everyone is up to speed.

The questline begins with Highlord Darion Mograine when you are friendly with the Ashen Verdict with:

The Sacred and the Corrupt which requires:
  • Light’s Vengeance
  • Primordial Saronite x25
  • Festergut’s Acidic Blood
  • Rotface’s Acidic Blood
When you collect all of that, you turn it all in to Mograine and move to the next quest,

Shadow’s Edge which gives you Shadow’s Edge. You then move on to:

A Feast of Souls in which you must use Shadow’s Edge to slay 1,000 minions of the Lich King in Icecrown Citadel. Any enemy you hit gains the Shadow’s Fate debuff and when they die, it counts towards this, so use AoE or whatever to tag as many enemies as you can in a fight. When that is done, you start infusing the weapons with:

Unholy Infusion at Professor Putricide. For this one, you must become the abomination and absorb Mutated Slimes to get 100 energy and then use the new ability on the Abomination bar called Shadow Infusion. The infusion lasts 6 minutes, so when it is used, Putricide must be killed within that 6 minutes or you have to start over. For all infusion quests, you also have to be alive when the boss dies. Next, you continue the infusions with:

Blood Infusion and Blood Queen Lana’thel. You have to get hit by at least one tick of Blood Mirror to gain Gushing Wound and then Bite three other players to gain more stacks of that, meaning you need to be the first player bitten (if you aren’t lucky enough to be the first one turned into a Vampyr in the first place) in order to get enough bites in before she dies. Paladins should not use Divine Shield as it will remove Gushing Wound stacks! Final infusion is:

Frost Infusion where you need to survive four Frost Breath attacks and then kill the dragon within 6 minutes of getting the fourth breath. The breath does a lot of damage and the stacking debuff for the infusion also does a lot of damage, so resist gear and a lot of healer attention will be required. Plus, she cleaves, so be careful running around to get breathed on. Ouch. DK tanks probably have this one easiest. Palies can glyph Hand of Salvation to get a little more damage reduction. But, with the weapon fully infused, you then move on to:

The Splintered Throne and can now collect 50 Shadowfrost Shards, which have a chance to drop from any 25 man boss and may only be lootable by people on this quest. Turning those in, at last gives you:

Shadowmourne… in which you receive, surprisingly enough, Shadowmourne! You can then use your shiny new legendary axe for:

The Lich King’s Last Stand and kill Arthas. Whew.
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Saphiel
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jutaka wrote:
Since we should be taking down Festerface and Rotgut any day now...


Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

I have very serious concerns about our ability to down Festergut, and by extension Blood Queen Lana'thel (who is also a very tight DPS check).

Take a look at this log (one of the first ones I pulled up, luckily it perfectly illustrates my point): http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8rhwpcvbx1nbraxm/sum/damageDone/?s=8359&e=8663

This was a very narrow Festergut kill by a German guild. It appears that they killed him at the exact moment he enraged and wiped them. See the numbers they're putting out? Most times, our top DPSers are putting out about the same level of DPS as their 10th and on. And they just barely killed him.

Now, admittedly, a couple of their people died during this encounter (looks like 3 of them, 1 early on and 2 about midway). However, they also only used 5 healers where we usually use 6 (we may be able to get away with 5 as well, we'll have to see). In any case, even if each of their DPS were doing 700 less apiece, they'd still be doing more than most of us.

My point is, well, the same point I'm always trying to make. We need to shape up or we're just going to have to wait and hope that the zone-wide buff is big enough (and it probably won't be until it's at least 10%, if not more) to make up our slack.

When's the last time you read up on your class?

Until we can actually get Festergut down, Shadowmourne is going to have to be backburnered. For the time being, our Saronite is better spent on crafting gear to boost our DPS.
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Jutaka
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, perhaps "any day now" was overly optimistic. Smile I fully agree that if the best use of Primordial Saronite at the moment is to improve our immediate DPS through crafted items, then that's what we should do. I'm 100% behind that.

Therefore, I suppose my only point at the moment is to correct the information on the questline for when this does become relevant. This thread previously stated that the questline didn't really begin until after a drop from Sindragosa, which is not the case.
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sooo... I know Zandivya and I have harvested our 1,000 souls and I'm sure a couple of others are almost there too, if they're not already. Although we do need more work before we're able to down Putricide, we're getting close and I feel it's unfair to those working towards Shadowmourne to put off this discussion any longer. It would really be best to know who will be given the first shot at collecting Shadowfrost Shards before the infusion quests are completed by anyone.

Would it be acceptible to start discussing this now or is it still too soon?
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Saphiel
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's fine with me. Let's discuss it and then, I don't know, vote or something?

My opinion is that it should go to a DPS, as it would serve the guild better. Since Zand doesn't have any threat problems that I'm aware of, and since the axe is fully statted for DPS, DPS characters just get a lot more out of it due to all the inherent synergies of talents and general class design.

With that said, no one is getting a shot at doing Putricide's part of the questline until we've actually downed Putricide, and of course that goes for all the other bosses involved as well.
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Rajindo
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh* Well I can't deny it's intended for dps (though so is every other axe I use :p) but let's take a look at how this is going to go.

1. We have not killed Putricide yet and we have two more unkilled bosses to go after that. Figure it'll be a month or two before we see them down.

2. After we do get those quests done then that person can start collecting shadowfrost shards which have a drop rate of about 25% on normal mode. We kill optimistically 7 bosses a week. Say we kill 8 by the time this is relevant, it makes the numbers easy anyway. If we pick up 2 shards a week then it'll take 25 weeks of raiding to get that part of the quest done. So now we're 7-8 months in the future and into the expansion. I would argue that this weapon is no longer an upgrade at that point but a personal achievement.

3. By Cataclysm our raids will slow down quite a bit (the 25s in particular) but I can keep them going to do hardmodes (which do have a bit higher drop rate) If people are interested. I am not a stranger to setting up old content raids. So hopefully I can pull people together for whatever shards are still required. It is, admittedly, self interest but I'm sure some people would like to get the achievements from ICC.

and whatever, 4. I always show up to raids so there's a good chance I'll collect the damn things as quickly as they can be collected.

This is a personal achievement. I've already put in a lot of effort to get the questline this far. There will not be a legendary 'tanking' axe, this is it for deathknight tanks.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you certainly do make some good points there, Zand. In that light, you're certainly a strong candidate for "deserving" the item given your exemplary attendance, but then Vaeldrin and others may also be pretty close in that respect.

I'm not really sure if we can factor in "effort put into the questline" because that's mostly measured in Saronite collection which is largely a function of the number of alts you have, which then may be a function of how much free time you have to spend farming it up.
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Jutaka
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always been an optimist, sometimes overly so, but I don't see that as a bad thing but rather as good motivation. And as an optimist, I'd like to think that we'd be able to get Shadowmourne before it is irrelevant. With that as a goal, it certainly makes the most sense to put it in the hands of whoever will benefit the raid the most as we work on hardmodes and achievements.

While we haven't killed Putricide yet, we've gotten really close and all it's going to take is for us to find the strategy that clicks for us or simply have an optimal group with no lag or disconnections. Once we get him one time, it should only get easier, too. Also, we haven't even attempted Lana'thel or Sindragosa recently, so for all we know, we could down all three of them next week. Granted, having not had as much practice on them makes that a bit unlikely, but we just don't know how we'll do against them in our current gear upgrades and the 15% buff.

I think it's doable. Plus, as the buff continues to ramp up and we continue to gear up, I think it would be ridiculous to think we'd continue to only down 7 or 8 bosses a week. In the beginning, we couldn't get past Deathwhisper. Now we blow through the whole lower spire in an hour or so. Rotface and Festergut were huge stumbling blocks for a while, now we consistently one-shot them. We progress, we get better, and bosses that were once impossible become loot piñatas. We just have to continue that, or ideally, step it up a notch, and we will get there.

Plus, as good as Shadowmourne is, particularly for Retribution, I really can't see it being replaced by the first blue quest drop at level 81, so it should remain an upgrade well into the expansion. If past legendaries or even just high end raid gear is any indication, we could potentially still be using it in our first Cataclysm raid, certainly in the early dungeons and heroics.

With that optimistic view, I'd like to second Saphiel's opinion that it go to the main spec DPSer who would benefit the raid most and furthermore, that I am that DPSer. I have pretty consistently been the top Shadowmourne-eligible DPSer in our raids and right up there in the top DPSers overall, beating out several "pure" DPS classes on a regular basis even. I know my class and how to use it, I do the research, I don't stand in fires. I even dropped my gathering profession to have two tradeskills that provide DPS benefits. I am dedicated to this raid alliance, I am good at what I do, and I can guarantee that absolutely none of Shadowmourne's potential would be wasted in my hands.

Everyone seems to agree that the intent of this weapon is not just a DPS weapon, but a weapon for DPS. Yes, it is a great weapon for DK tanks, but it is even better for DPS specs. For instance, it is the best weapon that currently exists in the game for me. And not just by a little bit. With my current gear, Shadowmourne is a 69.3% DPS increase. The next thing that even comes close to that is the 25-man Heroic version of Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General from Arthas and that is only a 20.0% upgrade. Shadowmourne is still 40% better than the second best weapon that only drops from Heroic Lich King!

Using Zand in his current gear for comparison, Shadowmourne is not even the best weapon he could have, although it is probably the best of the weapons he could realistically get. Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-General, Glorenzelg, High-Blade of the Silver Hand, and Bloodfall are all slightly better, but are all Heroic 25-man drops. So while they are most likely out of reach, the fact remains that they do exist and are better than Shadowmourne. Shadowmourne is actually only about a 10.1% increase in overall rating in Rawr over Shadow's Edge. And Ramaladni's Blade of Culling (a great example of a two-handed DK tanking weapon vs two-handed DPS weapons) from the 10-man Heroic version of Deathbringer Saurfang is a 6.6% upgrade and only 3.3% under Shadowmourne. And the way we are going, the 10-man Heroic versions of ICC could be available to us sooner than 25-man normal Lich King.

In conclusion, if we decide that we have a chance for Shadowmourne to be relevant, before or even after the expansion comes out, I believe that the numbers fully support my claim to be the best candidate. On the other hand, if we feel that it is just a personal achievement or a reward for a job well done then is attendance the biggest deciding factor? Effort in getting this far in the questline can't decide anything because anyone that far along has put in the same work. Should it just be a prize for raid performance? However it is decided, I think a Legendary deserves more than just a /random roll from whoever is eligible.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Running a host of alts through heroics everyday is not just a commitment of time, it is a serious commitment of effort. I did this because the decision was made that people going for shadowmourne would have to gather mats on their own. If we had made more progress in the 25s than we have, then I would have been ready to complete the questline. As it happens progress has been slow.

I believe my estimate of 7-8 months is optimistic. Shards will have to be gathered after cataclysm which will require a further commitment of not just my time but the guild's as well, as further 25s are gathered and organized.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I don't think we reached an official decision, I believe that we were always leaning toward giving the weapon to a DPS as that would be of the most benefit to the guild. That you decided to pursue it was your own decision; it doesn't bind the guild to help you over someone else, in whose hands it might be of greater overall benefit.

As to the issue of the timeline. The way I see it, we'll most likely kill Putricide before the buff hits 20%. Lanathel, maybe. Sindragosa, I wouldn't be surprised if we needed the 25% buff even. Sindrgosa requires a lot more "on the fly" thinking than either of the other two bosses and I think phase 3 is going to give us a lot of trouble that raw numbers from gear and the buff aren't going to fix. So that means the end of July or so before we can even start collecting Shadowfrost shards.

Assuming that Cata is going to come out in November (given the 6 month beta testing pattern of previous exansions) and we're killing at least 10 bosses per week which is realistic (the only reason we don't kill more than 7-8 now is because we haven't downed any others, period). So that's 2.5 shards a week, or 20 weeks/5 months. Which puts us to the end of December, so Cata will likely be out. Even if we kill Sindra at 20% you're looking at late November.

I find the argument about using Shadowmourne in Cataclysm to be mostly irrelevant. It may be the best weapon for the first tier of raids or so, but the gap will have closed a lot by that point so that the advantage will likely be pretty meaningless.

To sum up: I think if we can complete the weapon before Cataclysm, then it should definitely go to Vaeldrin. If we can't and it's just for bragging rights, then it's really a toss up.
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Jutaka
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we have only to look at how many times we end up getting Residue Rendezvous to know the joys of the RNG and why the timeline predictions are worrisome.

Other than the extreme ends of the bell curve, on one end of which a sudden influx of luck, gear, skill, or raid partners results in us taking down Putricide, Lana-thel, and Sindragosa every week starting this coming week or the other end where it's November and we still haven't downed Putricide, it all comes down to getting lucky with the drops.

With good luck, we could down those bosses later and still get enough Shards for it to be relevant. With bad luck, we could down them earlier and still not have enough Shards by the time we're starting the next raid tier. So unless we hit one of those extremely early or late time frames, it comes down to deciding whether we want to err on the side of Shadowmourne relevancy or irrelevancy.

Either way, if we can manage to get one for anyone, whether it's used in the final days of this raid tier or whether it just serves as a trophy, it will be going to someone who deserves it and we'll be able to say that we, as a raid alliance, were able to achieve this together.
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, so far we've mostly only heard from the two people who most actively want and have a claim to Shadowmourne. I'd like to hear some other opinions on the matter.
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